tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post8738905874267787171..comments2023-06-30T22:41:31.789+10:00Comments on Word of Shadow: Stay awhile, and listen...Crimson Starfirehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03764422983380987864noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post-70872375847299034262009-05-10T13:04:00.000+10:002009-05-10T13:04:00.000+10:00I'll buy that Raph, in lieu of reading through 62 ...I'll buy that Raph, in lieu of reading through 62 MB of archived MUD-Dev mailing list material :)<br /><br />I think my care factor as far as listening to 'Deckard Cain' is still minimal, though.<br /><br />I have thought of an even better analogy. Let's say that Isaac Newton came back from the dead. Although his knowledge of physics was unparalleled at the time he was alive, by today's standards he'd have a lot of catching up to do (what with relativity and quantum physics and such). But, the man was a freaking genius. I'm sure he'd be able to catch up and then even offer some insights that we could benefit from today.<br /><br />But Deckard Cain over there? He's still living in the past man. Does he have the genius to transform the present day, or was he somewhat of a one trick pony?<br /><br />My point is that everyone treats him like an Isaac Newton, but I just don't see it.Melf_Himselfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989146159619414666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post-68833289245705835642009-05-08T03:22:00.000+10:002009-05-08T03:22:00.000+10:00Melf, there are plenty of sources out there. I can...Melf, there are plenty of sources out there. I can personally vouch that developers on UO, EQ, The Realm, DSO, Meridian 59, Lineage, and Kingdom of the Winds all played MUDs. This can be confirmed with some research -- it's all out there. For a blog post more specific on this issue, try this one:<br /><br />http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/06/27/mud-influence/<br /><br />In addition, developers for many of these were on the MUD-Dev mailing list.<br /><br />http://mud.wikia.com/wiki/MUD-Dev<br /><br />This doesn't mean you can lay all the flaws of modern MMORPG gameplay at Bartle's feet. MUDs were around for 15-18 years before the MMORPGs came along, and branched and evolved in many different ways, almost entirely not under Bartle's direction in any way. The primary influence on the MMORPGs is the Diku variant, which wasn't created until 1992, over ten years after MUD1.Raph Kosterhttp://www.raphkoster.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post-48224526071995719782009-05-05T09:05:00.000+10:002009-05-05T09:05:00.000+10:00I doubt that Richard Bartle and what he created wo...I doubt that Richard Bartle and what he created would have been a direct inspiration to EQ or UO developers - there were a few generations of MUD-type software in between. <br /><br />Everquest had so many similarities with DikuMUD that there was legal actions considered until Verant produced a sworn statement that they had not reused DikuMUD code. (http://www.dikumud.com/Everquest/Sworn.aspx)<br /><br />Certainly inspired by Diku even though they probably did not use existing Diku code.<br /><br />A number of the Ultima Online game mechanics had its origin in LegendMUD, which also was designed by Raph Koster and his wife.<br /><br />Designs are not inherently good or bad, they must have a context. The problem is and has been that many designs may have been adopted without properly understanding why the design decisions were made in the first place.<br /><br />One of the good things about bartle is that he understands this and can reason about these designs and ideas. <br /><br />This problem is not unique for games, it is everywhere where there is software development and you get crappy solutions because people just adopted some implementation/solution to solve their problem without understanding why this particular solution was chosen for the original problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post-28523355999672164342009-05-03T18:52:00.000+10:002009-05-03T18:52:00.000+10:00Thanks for that link Gark.
My point is, statement...Thanks for that link Gark.<br /><br />My point is, statements like that from Raph don't show anything. UO had completely different gameplay to "Diku" games and to games such as WoW, and since UO was the only pioneering game that Raph worked on, any statements he has to offer are pure theory. Just like all the other ones I have seen.<br /><br />You talk about "statements from developers and all of that", which WOULD be compelling evidence, but I'd just like to actually see some. I've wondered about this for a while, but haven't been able to find any.<br /><br />My other point is - let's say some EQ designer comes by and says yes, Richard Bartle was a great inspiration to me. This, to me, diminished the respect that should be afforded Dr Bartle further, as it means that his poor design decisions have ruined a genre that has wonderful potential.<br /><br />Anonymous, I was speaking of several different aspects of current MMO gameplay, including but not limited to tank-healer-nuker gameplay, 1-2-3 button mashing gameplay, boring repetition gameplay (kill 100 foozles), and general lack of dynamic tactics necessary or lack of twitch skills, etc.<br /><br />I use the word retarded because it is difficult for me to fathom how several of the design decisions in such games were made.Melf_Himselfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989146159619414666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post-4919632667238944612009-05-03T08:15:00.000+10:002009-05-03T08:15:00.000+10:00retarded modern day....????
what are you talking a...retarded modern day....????<br />what are you talking about and why do you use the word retarded? that is just wrong on so many different levels.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post-71206320418830469582009-05-02T17:51:00.000+10:002009-05-02T17:51:00.000+10:00Here, let me Google that for you.
http://www.rap...Here, let me Google that for you. <br /><br />http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/09/what-is-a-diku/<br /><br />Of course, you could look at all the other things like statements from developers and all of that, but it probably would have been better to do that before you posted that the idea was ridiculous.Garkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491504378478895374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post-46824284010091511042009-05-02T17:23:00.000+10:002009-05-02T17:23:00.000+10:00Widely known? By who? Point me to a reference?
Al...Widely known? By who? Point me to a reference?<br /><br />Also, I was not implying that EQ copied WoW. Reading comprehension is key.Melf_Himselfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989146159619414666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1994726481220201755.post-40763629680811826372009-05-02T17:05:00.000+10:002009-05-02T17:05:00.000+10:00It's pretty widely known that the developers of Ev...It's pretty widely known that the developers of Everquest actually were inspired by Sojourn.<br /><br />I don't know how they would have learned their game design skills from playing WoW since time machines do not exist and even if they did, I doubt the government would let game designers use them to <I>go into the future</I> to play games that haven't been released yet.Garkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491504378478895374noreply@blogger.com